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 Kyubey's (in)ability to revive the dead

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McKnight
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PostSubject: Kyubey's (in)ability to revive the dead   Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:53 am

So, a while ago, a friend of mine wrote a counterargument on Tumblr to this article, and mentioned that Homura "knew" that the dead cannot be wished back to life and mentions it in the final timeline.  There aren't any references to wishes in the anime's finale, if that's what she meant.  The only time I recall her saying anything is in episode 5 to Madoka at the burger joint; she was referring to a mortal law, and left out the loophole of making a contract for very obvious reasons.

Just right now, I came to visit Kyubey's wiki page, and saw this in the unproven theories section, deleted half of it, and brought it up in the discussion page:

Quote :
*** Kyubey does say at one point that sufficiently-advanced technology can appear to be magic to less-advanced species. He also mentions early on in the series that he can't bring dead people back to life, a clear limitation on his wish-granting abilities that most likely comes from his species' inability to revive the dead.  

Even having rewatched the whole anime only a week ago, in the course of three days, I never heard anything like that from him at any point.  If he in fact did say that, then could someone point out when, as well as why Magica Quartet didn't catch on to such an inconsistency in the first audio drama as Madoka wishing a cat back to life in the very first timeline?  

(For the record, her wish at the end of The Different Story makes sense, given its explicit potential after however many timelines Homura traveled by that point.  Memories of You, on the other hand, specifically explores the one timeline in which Madoka was just a run-of-the-mill Magical Girl, and Homura had yet to become one.)

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PostSubject: Re: Kyubey's (in)ability to revive the dead   Tue Sep 27, 2016 12:13 pm

Here's my guest, either it's the multiverse theory where Kyubey is able to revive the dead in one timeline, Kyubey can revive lesser beings, or Kyubey is an asshole.
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PostSubject: Re: Kyubey's (in)ability to revive the dead   Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:50 pm

zenkai97 wrote:
Here's my guest, either it's the multiverse theory where Kyubey is able to revive the dead in one timeline, Kyubey can revive lesser beings, or Kyubey is an asshole.

If it's true that Kyubey can't bring dead people back to life, then I'm 90% sure it's the third theory and here's why:
  - Kyubey being able to revive the dead in some multiverses and not others creates the implication that some multiverses are vastly different from others, which was implied not to be the case (unless Homura Tamura is canon); rather, the series implies that the multiverses/timelines are only different as a result of Homura's actions.
  - animals aren't inherently any different from humans. We are, scientifically speaking, animals; the only thing separating us is that we're more intelligent (also the fact that we have created this advanced society, but that's a result of our higher intelligence). And while I do see that whole "animals are separate from humans" idea thrown around a lot, I just can't really buy into it. Idk.
  - potential magical girls "conveniently" not being able to wish people back to life would be pretty useful for Kyubey, since if someone close to them has died, that's often exactly what they truly want, and getting potential magical girls to make a wish that will end in their despair is exactly what he wants.

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PostSubject: Re: Kyubey's (in)ability to revive the dead   Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:40 pm

Even so, Kyubey is one huge douche bag. Now I will use a quote to describe the little bastard.

As quoted by a fan game based on Five Nights at Freddy's: You are no longer animatronics. You are all assholes.

I don't think Kyubey will care if this insult is made for him, but I at least did it.
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PostSubject: Re: Kyubey's (in)ability to revive the dead   Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:37 am

Here's something to consider, though:

Incubators are above outright lying.  They might beat around the bush whenever necessary, but they will never outright claim to be capable or incapable of something that they aren't.

Anyway, my actual question was when he said that he cannot revive the dead, if he even did.  If he actually did, I would like to know where to verify it, in case he actually said something else (like how something Homura said during episode 5 could be misconstrued to mean that even making a contract cannot revive the dead, when she was only referring to a mortal law and omitted such a loophole for obvious reasons).  The second question (emphasis on "second"), if it actually is true, is why something like Memories of You that contradicted that in a big way was greenlit for publication.

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PostSubject: Re: Kyubey's (in)ability to revive the dead   Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:51 pm

McKnight wrote:
Anyway, my actual question was when he said that he cannot revive the dead, if he even did.  If he actually did, I would like to know where to verify it, in case he actually said something else (like how something Homura said during episode 5 could be misconstrued to mean that even making a contract cannot revive the dead, when she was only referring to a mortal law and omitted such a loophole for obvious reasons).  The second question (emphasis on "second"), if it actually is true, is why something like Memories of You that contradicted that in a big way was greenlit for publication.

Yeah, I can't remember him saying anything like that either. Now I'm pretty sure it isn't true at all and Kyubey actually can revive the dead.

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PostSubject: Re: Kyubey's (in)ability to revive the dead   Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:26 pm

Maybe it's just a production error. There's a lot of random things behind the scene and there were times that everybody at the place wanted to bring back Sayaka. But because Gen Urobochi, the guy who wrote Madoka Magica, hated her, she stayed dead. It's funny because even his boss wanted Sayaka back and sad because Sayaka could had come back.

That could have showed that Kyubey can revive the dead with Sayaka as an example. Maybe, but that's just speculations, theories, and facts that I found online.
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PostSubject: Re: Kyubey's (in)ability to revive the dead   Thu Sep 29, 2016 11:55 pm

She in fact was revived at the end of The Different Story. She never does die off in Oriko Magica, while Kazuko does, but maybe because her issues just weren't relevant in that story.

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PostSubject: Re: Kyubey's (in)ability to revive the dead   Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:31 am

But is that from Kyubey? I read Oriko a few years ago and Madoka stayed dead in that story sadly.
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PostSubject: Re: Kyubey's (in)ability to revive the dead   Fri Sep 30, 2016 3:09 am

That's because there wasn't anyone there to wish her back to life. Sayaka was the only one yet to become a Magical Girl, and she more than likely wished for Kyousuke's hand to heal just like in all other timelines.

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PostSubject: Re: Kyubey's (in)ability to revive the dead   Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:16 am

I'm sort of wondering now if Kyubey's (in)ability to revive the dead has something to do with whether someone is or isn't a magical girl. A person with magic powers is inherently more important than a regular person much in the same way a human is - in most people's eyes - more important than an animal.

Homura not bringing Madoka back to life back in the first timeline, might just be that she didn't have enough potential. Honestly, it's very confusing to me as well.

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PostSubject: Re: Kyubey's (in)ability to revive the dead   Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:28 am

I was talking about whether the dead can be brought back to life via a contract, not through powers that Incubators can use on their own.

The anime itself doesn't state why Homura chose to go back in time instead of reviving Madoka. For all we know, she might have chosen without thinking it over, just like Mami wound up wishing only for herself instead of her entire family to survive that fateful car wreck. She was already told that all Magical Girls are destined to die, but we don't know if she planned her wish in advance for when Madoka and Mami would die, considering how much of a shock it still came to her when they did that she (naturally) burst into tears.

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PostSubject: Re: Kyubey's (in)ability to revive the dead   Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:45 am

Bringing them back via contract is what I meant. I suppose I should have made that clear. What I said still stands. The difference between a magical girl, regular human, and animal may have made a difference on whether they can be brought back via a wish

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PostSubject: Re: Kyubey's (in)ability to revive the dead   Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:15 pm

I think Homura didn't wish for Madoka to come back to life because she didn't just want that. At the time of making her wish, Homura had a lot of confidence issues (and probably still did throughout) and most likely wanted Madoka to see her as "stronger", and also maybe to prove to herself that she wasn't as useless as she thought she was.

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PostSubject: Re: Kyubey's (in)ability to revive the dead   Fri Sep 30, 2016 10:09 pm

Back to the opening question I think they have at least two reasons for the Incubators inability to raise the dead through granting wishes.

First, they don't grant wishes. As I speculate, they just remove the 'brakes' that don't let normal people use magic ie. force their concepts and wishes on the world. Why this release results in a sudden burst of magic 'causing a miracle' or 'granting a wish' is something I couldn't come up with an answer to so far but I think they don't interpret and/or twist wishes, they just let happen what the girl thinks she wants. Sayaka's and Kyouko's examples show how a wish can go wrong and not even because of ill interpretation. And should no such error show up they still have the witches to wear down a magical girl who seems to be negatively affected by her own emotions anyway - and never, ever positively. The gems don't just get cleaner by themselves, it's like they have diodes that make this change one direction.

Second, they don't know what happens to the soul after death. Kyubey in the new world couldn't explain what happens to a magical girl when her gem goes black. I think they have a model that predicts something completely different than them just disappearing. I just can't comprehend why they didn't look for the answer like millennia earlier [Rebellion should have explained it!], why poor Homura had to be their guinea pig. Of course she blames herself for letting them know about Madokami this way.


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PostSubject: Re: Kyubey's (in)ability to revive the dead   Sat Oct 01, 2016 6:26 am

sayakasfav wrote:
I think Homura didn't wish for Madoka to come back to life because she didn't just want that. At the time of making her wish, Homura had a lot of confidence issues (and probably still did throughout) and most likely wanted Madoka to see her as "stronger", and also maybe to prove to herself that she wasn't as useless as she thought she was.

Guess I should have made a connection between her wish and her feelings of inferiority up until that point. Well, even the most knowledgeable miss details here and there, and I did draw a connection between her contrasting phys ed performances in that first timeline and the main one (episode 1).

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