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 Discussion: Sayaka's Wish

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PostSubject: Discussion: Sayaka's Wish   Thu Sep 01, 2016 2:29 pm

There's something I've been thinking about for awhile: would Sayaka have become a magical girl if Kyosuke wasn't in the hospital? Or even if he had only injured his legs and not his hand (so he could still play violin)?

There's a lot of factors to consider here: Sayaka's (and Madoka's) initial hesitance to make a wish after what happened to Mami; Sayaka's feelings for Kyosuke and/or her level of awareness of those feelings (the impression I got was that, at least prior to becoming a magical girl, she either was completely oblivious to her feelings or heavily denying them); whether she would have been willing to make a 'selfish' wish in order to gain Kyosuke's attention (her general attitude throughout the series strongly implies that she wouldn't, but I suppose anything's possible given the right circumstances); and whether there was anything else she really wanted (the rooftop conversation in episode 4 seems to imply that there's not, but it's still possible).

Personally, I think that as long as Kyosuke's hand remained intact + able to play violin, Sayaka would never have become a magical girl. At the beginning of the series, before making a contract with Kyubey, she was actually pretty rational, albeit a little impulsive; and her main (conscious) motivator for making the wish was Kyosuke's suffering over the almost guaranteed possibility that he would never be able to play the violin again. But what do you guys think? Sayaka

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion: Sayaka's Wish   Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:02 am

I always thought that girls Kyuubey wanted them to be magical girls were doomed to become ones. He would insist so tenaciously like he did in Madoka's case. It's obvious that he really wanted Madoka to become a magical girl due to her immense magical potential. But Sayaka wasn't his priority, I think Kyuubey would eventually give up on her if she didn't want to make a wish. But there is also possibility that once a girl know about magic and wishes, she would sooner or later give in to urge of making her dream come true. If it is not Kyousuke's hand it might be some different big issue that would appear at some point. I think that a girl who knows about Kyuubey's magic would always become a magical girl unless she has very strong resolution to not become one. Sayaka was terrified by Mami's death but I don't know either this terror would definitely restrain her from making some different wish if she had one. If something terrible would happen (because terrible things do happen to PMMM characters) she would naturally want to fix it be making wish. Or maybe no. I don't know.

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion: Sayaka's Wish   Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:39 am

SockPuppet wrote:
I always thought that girls Kyuubey wanted them to be magical girls were doomed to become ones.

Yeah, that was definitely implied in canon, though I guess I like to think about it a bit more optimistically....

SockPuppet wrote:
But Sayaka wasn't his priority, I think Kyuubey would eventually give up on her if she didn't want to make a wish.

I agree. It was directly stated that she didn't have a whole lot of potential as a magical girl, so I think after a certain point, Kyubey would have most likely decided to not try to get Sayaka to contract and focus on Madoka.

Also, since Kyubey picks girls who are 'vulnerable', if Kyousuke's hand was still intact, I think it's highly likely that Kyubey wouldn't have revealed himself to Sayaka at all, and would have created a situation where only Madoka would have discovered him. Although, in that situation, I think it might also be likely that if/when Madoka died, Kyubey might then reveal himself to Sayaka in the hopes that Sayaka would wish for Madoka to come back. Unless Sayaka's potential is too low even for that. Or maybe even the very possibility of her wishing Madoka back to life would be enough to raise her potential? It's hard to say.

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion: Sayaka's Wish   Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:45 pm

Quote :
Quote :
Unless Sayaka's potential is too low even for that. Or maybe even the very possibility of her wishing Madoka back to life would be enough to raise her potential? It's hard to say.

I don't know. How desperately a girl needs a wish and how big change that wish would make - these must be elements of her potential. But the way Kyubey keeps mentioning that "Madoka could do even that" makes me think that there's more. Otherwise it would be enough for someone to want to be a god to become one. I really don't know.
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PostSubject: Re: Discussion: Sayaka's Wish   Sun Sep 04, 2016 3:13 am

There are some limitations for wishes for sure. And probably it depends on the girl's magical potential if a very...overpowered wish can be granted or not. But then, we haven't seen Kyuubey saying to any girl that he cannot grant her wish because it's too big. Maybe even a capability of making a powerful wish is part of said magical potential. If I recall correctly, in the first timeline Madoka wished to save some cat? So it wasn't very exaggerated wish. Still, what would happen if some plain girl with low potential makes a powerful wish on a whim?

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion: Sayaka's Wish   Sun Sep 04, 2016 4:07 pm

SockPuppet wrote:
But then, we haven't seen Kyuubey saying to any girl that he cannot grant her wish because it's too big.
...
Still, what would happen if some plain girl with low potential makes a powerful wish on a whim?

It's possible that Kyubey wouldn't attempt to recruit a low-potential girl who would be likely to make a powerful wish in the first place, because he would see it as a waste of time.

alvaro84 wrote:
How desperately a girl needs a wish and how big change that wish would make - these must be elements of her potential.

I would assume so. What I'm wondering is if an otherwise completely ordinary girl, who, if left alone, would have lived a completely ordinary life, would almost certainly make a wish that could potentially change the fate of the world; does that inherently raise her potential? It seems like it would; in fact it's possible that that's the case with Madoka (although Kyubey did say otherwise).

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion: Sayaka's Wish   Sun Sep 04, 2016 7:52 pm

Oh, Madoka is a hundred Madokas packed together, in a big ball of timey-wimey stuff. The first one was an ordinary insecure girl with a simple wish, a mediocre magical girl. I think she was the case QB could have easily let go - but no one tried to save her back then.
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PostSubject: Re: Discussion: Sayaka's Wish   Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:31 am

BTW, there was something like Sayaka's fate in all timelines was to become a witch and that was why she couldn't die in normal way and was taken by Madokami's Law of the Cycle. I've just came to conclusion that it may be due to her healing powers, she can heal any wound so she might be almost immortal as a magical girl and thus becoming a witch was the only option for her. I don't know if I think properly but well.

Return to main topic: I think it is not clear if Sayaka had to become a magical girl if it was not for Kyousuke. Also, according to the show all girls who ever knew about magic and Incubators eventually became puellae magi so maybe Kyuubey is more tenacious than we though.

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion: Sayaka's Wish   Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:03 am

SockPuppet wrote:
Also, according to the show all girls who ever knew about magic and Incubators eventually became puellae magi so maybe Kyuubey is more tenacious than we though.

Disproven at the end of Oriko Magica: Extra Story, when Oriko:
Spoiler:
 

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion: Sayaka's Wish   Sun Sep 11, 2016 5:29 am

Oh, I see. I've read only part of Oriko.

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion: Sayaka's Wish   Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:17 am

SockPuppet wrote:
I've just came to conclusion that it may be due to her healing powers, she can heal any wound so she might be almost immortal as a magical girl and thus becoming a witch was the only option for her.

...

Also, according to the show all girls who ever knew about magic and Incubators eventually became puellae magi so maybe Kyuubey is more tenacious than we though.

My theory is that:
- their bodies are those of normal living organisms, their system is as normal and human as it can be (see how Kyouko and Mami look younger in the flashbacks).
- their magic remote controls this body and this remote control is the most efficient if the body is intact.
- they can remote control a body that basically stopped working (should be normally dead) but it's basically telekinesis and is much less efficient. Sayaka's "zombie fighter mode" may work like that. It costs much more magical energy than just controlling their normal living body.
- therefore their magic tries to keep their bodies in a state that can be considered 'alive'.
- they must have a basic magical healing mechanism that keeps their bodies to a state that they can survive. It must be like clotting of blood that automatically: it finds a way to repair the body enough to stop constant bleeding of magical energy.
- I theorize that this 'automation' use a permanent image of self in the girl's subconscious.

The other side of the coin is conscious healing of themselves and others. It may be needed because the automatic healing stops at some point to preserve magic that may be needed for other things. Also, a girl's magic is not to be wasted because if their soul gems darken it can throw them in a downward spiral. As their gem darkens they become depressed and unstable and it darkens further their gem even without using more magic. It seems that there's no way back, i.e. to clean their gem by feeling happy.
You can see the basics of the automatic healing mechanism is Grief Syndrome. In that game every damage gets healed without paying attention but it costs 'mana' (soul limit) and your gem gets darker in the process. It can even revive you but if your gem gets completely black in the process then you're a witch. C'est la жизнь.

This is why I made up a few of the above rules - so this mechanism can stop not making you a witch to patch a few scars that you can deal with later. But if you blow your brains out it can still drain your magic and turn you into a witch (refer GOSE/chp18).

As for Kyubey's rules and tenacity, I'm not sure but they must have something to do with efficiency.

Oh, I forgot to mention how Homura heals herself in the hospital in every loop. She has to do it herself as the state she aims for is better than what her body 'remembers'. She needs a perfect heart and good eyesight to fight efficiently while she's naturally weak and short sighted. She may have been just through a heart surgery (one of my pet ideas is Homura with a chest scar, which being a mere aesthetic flaw won't heal automatically) which should have gone better or something like that.
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PostSubject: Re: Discussion: Sayaka's Wish   Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:15 pm

SockPuppet wrote:
BTW, there was something like Sayaka's fate in all timelines was to become a witch and that was why she couldn't die in normal way and was taken by Madokami's Law of the Cycle. I've just came to conclusion that it may be due to her healing powers, she can heal any wound so she might be almost immortal as a magical girl and thus becoming a witch was the only option for her.

Oh, I actually didn't consider that that might be the reason she always turns into a witch, but you're probably right.

Although, it bugs me that she always turns into a witch so soon. Sad

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion: Sayaka's Wish   Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:50 am

Maybe her psyche that was unstable from the beginning. But I think it's due to circumstances being the same in every timeline. Homura wasn't interested in preventing Sayaka's transformation into a witch so the series of event leading to her becoming one were always almost the same in all timelines so it's only natural that she was transforming in the same moment everytime.

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PostSubject: Re: Discussion: Sayaka's Wish   Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:18 pm

SockPuppet wrote:
Maybe her psyche that was unstable from the beginning. But I think it's due to circumstances being the same in every timeline.

Yeah, probably :/

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