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 Debate: Homura Did Nothing Wrong

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PostSubject: Debate: Homura Did Nothing Wrong   Fri Jul 15, 2016 6:44 pm

This is the biggest argument in the fandom at the moment: was what Homura did at the end of Rebellion the right thing? Was it a product or selfless or obsessive love?

I believe that Homura did everything wrong.

Here's why.

Homura was always a little bit crazy about Madoka in the original series, but in Rebellion she turns full Yandere. She disregards Madoka's wish just to appease her own selfish desires. She destroys a world built on the idea of hope and salvation and replaces it with a false, idealized illusion that fits her own needs. 

Madoka didn't want this. Yes, i know she did express early in the movie that she wouldn't be happy being away from her friends and family but remember, her memories were locked away in order to protect her from the Incubators. Her decision to become the Law of Cycles was made after 12 episodes of character development, and it's what she truly wanted. So what she said to Homura in the flower field is irrelevant.

Essentially, Homura cherrypicks the things about the girls that suits her needs most. She chose the words that timeline 3 Madoka and amnesiac Madoka spoke as "the true definitive wishes of Kaname Madoka". 

She did bring back Nagisa and Sayaka, but not because she's a genuinely nice person. It's because they were people who mattered to Madoka. If they had nothing to do with her, i doubt Homura would have added them in the new world at all. 

People tend to get confused and think that Homura truly cared about everyone, but it isn't true. Homura pretends she cares but she really doesn't. If they didn't matter to Madoka, she would have gladly shot them at the beginning of every new timeline. Homura doesn't like Mami, and she absolutely despises Sayaka. She only thinks of Kyoko as an ally, nothing more.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Homura Did Nothing Wrong   Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:46 am

I myself don't fully agree with one side or the other, although I do understand where both sides are coming from and have agreed with both at one point or another.

While I do think Homura screwed up really badly, I think she was largely a victim of circumstance. People tend to forget that the entire reason Rebellion happened was because of Kyubey and his manipulation.

She did the things she did because she was under a lot of emotional distress, and while that's not an excuse per se, it does provide a basis on which to understand her actions. She repeated a month over and over again for the sole purpose of saving Madoka; a single person. This is most likely what created her 'tunnel vision' for Madoka. Of course, she did have a pre-existing love for her, but I think repeating that month, potentially countless times, is what made her love for Madoka into an obsession.

Her original desire was to protect Madoka. She spent said time trying to do just that. Unfortunately, there's this crappy idea in society that you have to lie to people in order to protect them. That's essentially what Homura did, but in the anime she actually had evidence from a previous timeline that telling the truth wouldn't work; in Rebellion it was pretty much all her own reasoning based on evidence that was 'cherrypicked' like you said, however, there is scientific evidence out there that shows everyone cherrypicks subconsciously and unknowingly, which I think was the case with her. The conversation in the flower field was likely her feeling conflicted over whether to trust 3rd timeline Madoka or end-of-the-anime Madoka, and so she asked amnesiac Madoka, which was definitely not the wisest choice since amnesiac Madoka didn't know everything she used to know, but I think that Homura, in the state of mind she was in, either didn't think to consider that, or thought that amnesiac Madoka was the 'true' Madoka because end-of-the-anime Madoka had seen a lot of crap and had to take what Homura most likely saw as drastic measures. Not to mention that Homura probably saw Madoka becoming goddess-like as a sacrifice because she, while not technically dead, would be unable to experience life in the usual fashion.

I do think that she cared about the others; definitely not to the extent that she cared for Madoka, because she actually tried to help Madoka whereas she didn't with the others (at least not more than in minor ways), but she did show emotion when bad things happened to them. I think, to a certain extent, she actively tried not to care about the others because she knew there was no way to save them other than to stop trying to save Madoka and switch to someone else, which she couldn't have done because of how much she loved Madoka.

Also, we can't forget that Homura is technically already a witch for the entirety of Rebellion. Witches are the embodiments of despair. The only reason Rebellion happened was because Kyubey orchestrated it all; trapping Homura and Madoka and everyone else into Homura's labyrinth. People tend to blame Homura for this because she gave the information about the witches to Kyubey, which, yes, was a really bad decision on her part, but I doubt she thought there was any possible way Kyubey could dismantle Madoka's system.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Homura Did Nothing Wrong   Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:19 am

@sayakasfav wrote:
I myself don't fully agree with one side or the other, although I do understand where both sides are coming from and have agreed with both at one point or another.

While I do think Homura screwed up really badly, I think she was largely a victim of circumstance. People tend to forget that the entire reason Rebellion happened was because of Kyubey and his manipulation.

She did the things she did because she was under a lot of emotional distress, and while that's not an excuse per se, it does provide a basis on which to understand her actions. She repeated a month over and over again for the sole purpose of saving Madoka; a single person. This is most likely what created her 'tunnel vision' for Madoka. Of course, she did have a pre-existing love for her, but I think repeating that month, potentially countless times, is what made her love for Madoka into an obsession.

Her original desire was to protect Madoka. She spent said time trying to do just that. Unfortunately, there's this crappy idea in society that you have to lie to people in order to protect them. That's essentially what Homura did, but in the anime she actually had evidence from a previous timeline that telling the truth wouldn't work; in Rebellion it was pretty much all her own reasoning based on evidence that was 'cherrypicked' like you said, however, there is scientific evidence out there that shows everyone cherrypicks subconsciously and unknowingly, which I think was the case with her. The conversation in the flower field was likely her feeling conflicted over whether to trust 3rd timeline Madoka or end-of-the-anime Madoka, and so she asked amnesiac Madoka, which was definitely not the wisest choice since amnesiac Madoka didn't know everything she used to know, but I think that Homura, in the state of mind she was in, either didn't think to consider that, or thought that amnesiac Madoka was the 'true' Madoka because end-of-the-anime Madoka had seen a lot of crap and had to take what Homura most likely saw as drastic measures. Not to mention that Homura probably saw Madoka becoming goddess-like as a sacrifice because she, while not technically dead, would be unable to experience life in the usual fashion.

I do think that she cared about the others; definitely not to the extent that she cared for Madoka, because she actually tried to help Madoka whereas she didn't with the others (at least not more than in minor ways), but she did show emotion when bad things happened to them. I think, to a certain extent, she actively tried not to care about the others because she knew there was no way to save them other than to stop trying to save Madoka and switch to someone else, which she couldn't have done because of how much she loved Madoka.

Also, we can't forget that Homura is technically already a witch for the entirety of Rebellion. Witches are the embodiments of despair. The only reason Rebellion happened was because Kyubey orchestrated it all; trapping Homura and Madoka and everyone else into Homura's labyrinth. People tend to blame Homura for this because she gave the information about the witches to Kyubey, which, yes, was a really bad decision on her part, but I doubt she thought there was any possible way Kyubey could dismantle Madoka's system.
But if Homura hadn't told Kyubey about the existence of Madoka, Rebellion would have never happened. It wasn't a very smart decision on her behalf, but she does know Kyubey's manipulative nature, and telling him that there was a faster way to acquire energy would have definitely got his brain ticking. She probably didn't know there was a way to dismantle the system, and when she learned that all it took was just capturing Madoka, she did the thing.

I never said outright that Homura pick and choosing what Madoka said was a conscious notion, as you said it could very well be subconscious. The way i worded myself i may have come off that way. 

She does express emotion to the other girls, but that isn't the same as caring about them. Homura was willing to kill Sayaka to stop her from making Madoka unhappy, and she probably would have if Kyoko hadn't showed up to stop her. The way she talks about Sayaka when she's just died and Madoka is crying over her dead body is horrible. 

The thing that bothers me the most about Homura is that she's perfectly ok with destroying entire universe just because she feels like it. She even said it herself at the end of Rebellion. "Once all the Wraiths are defeated, i might destroy this world". She knows what she's doing is wrong, and she's knows Madoka won't like it if she were ever to regain her memories. Homura seems perfectly content being a villain.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Homura Did Nothing Wrong   Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:38 am

Now that's a sentence I don't feel make any sense. It may be a taunt for Sayaka, no more, no less. I'm not sure if she could do it, to begin with.

As for her disclosing Madoka's secret to QB - it was a huge, stupid mistake she made. I can't even explain it, maybe she was so lonely she was happy to talk about Madoka to anyone who wouldn't call her insane on the spot. Well, he listened too well. Maybe she mocked him, just like she mocked Sayaka at the end of Rebellion. Anyway, it was really, dangerously stupid of her. Maybe she was at her rope's end, we all know how black gems affect magical girls' judgement.

So this was her mistake or sin, not what she did after she was freed from her own barrier. That was damage control, to stop QB's kind in a way that could grant Madoka (and everyone else) a relatively happy environment.

About her almost killing Sayaka: I'd have done the same. Sayaka was doomed. It was too easy to see that she was already dead and she was just making things even worse. Should she succed it would have been a real mercy kill. Turning into a witch is a fate worse than death and she could have prevented it.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Homura Did Nothing Wrong   Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:47 am

Oh, and one more thing: I just can't see her content with the things she did (betraying Madoka's wish). The Clara dolls' imitating suicide, her insane ballet in the stinger, her falling down from the edge of Broken Hill (my name for the place in her world, it used to be a normal, round hill like the moon was round as a cake too) all tell me that she suffers, despises herself and would gladly kill herself if she saw Madoka safe once and for all.
She might be wrong in judgement and decisions, she might be mentally ill, but she has conscience and guilt because she's a benevolent person to begin with, a good girl.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Homura Did Nothing Wrong   Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:41 am

Here's another thing to consider: The events of Rebellion should not have been possible in the first place.  

To begin with, I don't understand why the story didn't just continue with Wraith Arc in the first place, instead of eventually commissioning one of their spinoff authors to write that up as a manga only.

But, more importantly, if the Incubators had the default means to block out laws of the universe to begin with, then they should have just tried that out from the very beginning after seeing a lack of energy being released from disappearing Puellae Magi and figuring that something is wrong.  They're looking for the kind of energy that the final despair of Puellae Magi is supposed to release, so logically, they should have already tried to investigate that.  Homura doesn't even share any technical details with Kyubey or give him any hook to work from, and knew that the Incubators would have already exhausted their options to find more efficient means of extracting energy for the universe.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Homura Did Nothing Wrong   Sat Sep 03, 2016 4:39 am

@McKnight wrote:
Here's another thing to consider: The events of Rebellion should not have been possible in the first place.
...
But, more importantly, if the Incubators had the default means to block out laws of the universe to begin with, then they should have just tried that out from the very beginning after seeing a lack of energy being released from disappearing Puellae Magi and figuring that something is wrong.

Actually, you have a point here. I see it as an unfortunate plot hole. The Incubators' nature seems to be curiosity, even though they deny it. And this curiosity does even serve a purpose. I can't see how they hadn't already tried like thousands of years earlier.

I just chose to skip this plot hole in order to enjoy Rebellion as a sufficiently twisted story.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Homura Did Nothing Wrong   Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:57 am

@McKnight wrote:
But, more importantly, if the Incubators had the default means to block out laws of the universe to begin with, then they should have just tried that out from the very beginning after seeing a lack of energy being released from disappearing Puellae Magi and figuring that something is wrong.  They're looking for the kind of energy that the final despair of Puellae Magi is supposed to release, so logically, they should have already tried to investigate that. Homura doesn't even share any technical details with Kyubey or give him any hook to work from, and knew that the Incubators would have already exhausted their options to find more efficient means of extracting energy for the universe.

I suppose it's possible that maybe magical girls release a bit of energy on their own? But that's implied not to be true within the anime... Or maybe the incubators already tried an experiment similar to the one they did on Homura and it didn't work in the past, but I don't know why that would be the case, and if those experiments didn't work, then it doesn't make sense for the incubators to keep on making magical girls when they think they know that no energy is gained from it, therefore not doing anything to fix entropy. In fact, it doesn't make sense for them to keep the magical girl system going for any reason, unless the aforementioned possibility of magical girls releasing energy on their own really is true, in which case, how? Does the very act of making a wish release a little bit of energy?

Anyway, my point is that I think you're right. Damn it, we finally found a plot hole...

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Homura Did Nothing Wrong   Sat Sep 03, 2016 10:15 am

That is exactly what Wraith Arc should have covered.  So far, we know that Incubators now need Puellae Magi in order to fight Wraithes, and Kyubey even complains to Homura that the Wraithes just keep coming and coming.  We also know that the Wraithes have replaced Witches as the new embodiment of the world's negativity, so they might be the new source of energy that Incubators seek, but only time will tell when Wraith Arc eventually gets an English translation.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Homura Did Nothing Wrong   Sat Sep 03, 2016 8:28 pm

As far as I understand there's a certain amount of energy gained from the use grief cubes and it's enough to have the Incubators keep the system going. Quite a roundabout way (wraiths materialize from and collect excess human emotional energy, then magical girls reap them to protect humans from them overdoing it, then they add - or subtract? - their own excess emotions (curses born from having to use magic, or the 'recoil' from their wishes?) and present the used grief cubes to the (In)Cube-eaters.

So there's definitely a gain in it but as QB in ep12 remarked the witch system is more promising, probably yields more energy and more efficiency. In that case magical girls themselves are the 'curse magnets' and it's very beneficial to push them into witchdom. There's nothing to be gained from torturing a magical girl that collects wraith energy, they're useful tools instead of (very concentrated) fuel pellets.

Wouldn't it be nice if you could burn your tools and just make new ones any time...?

So I can't explain the millennia they spent with not trying to make witches. Maybe they did just failed because Madoka played similar tricks many times to save many test subjects...? Then she did quite well before the 21st century and it's really Homura's slip of the tongue that made the aliens try harder.

But let me quote my own 256-byte intro's file_id.diz here:


Quote :
After a dozen years here's another religious piece: the purifying light that a magical girl sees when her soul gem fills with grief and she's taken away by an unknown force. The Savior Goddess never comes in person but she can be visited at her earthly residence - if she invites you. At school she never deals with magical girl business, for a good reason.

This reason is an ancient and advanced extraterrestrial species, called the Incubators. They work as helpers of magical girls but in reality their relationship is much more sinister. In the previous version of this very world the Incubators introduced the magical girl system to harvest emotional energy in a way that killed their victims in the process, or more precisely, turned them into insane monsters, "Witches", without human consciousness.
Even though one of the girls' sacrifice erased these monsters via the complete re-creation of the universe, the Incubators' models still predict their existence. So the Incubators constantly seek the way to improve their apparently flawed system and re-introduce the Witches they completely forgot at the moment of the new creation.

The cause of their failure is the Goddess' faithful Angel of Death. In the old world she sold her soul to the Incubators for a new chance to save her beloved not-yet-goddess from their grasp. She bitterly failed time after time but her failures gave rise to the Goddess of Hope who found a way to save everyone, even her Angel.
Now it's the Angel's job to come for the dying magical girls to prevent the birth of Witches. She assumed this task from the Goddess to keep her protected. This way she risks her own capture by the Incubators but she has been cunning and agile enough to stay unnoticed - so far.

It's a parallel world and definitely not PMMM canon, though. It's kind of an intro or "trailer" for my on-crawling fiction Tomb Raider and the Angel Of Death. Here I state that the incubators have been looking for the missing piece of this huge jigsaw puzzle and Death Homura's job is to outwit them. But nothing like this has been stated in the canon so far and I pretty much miss both the statement and the explanation.

[ And a little self-advertisement: Madokami no Hikari @ pouet.net]
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Homura Did Nothing Wrong   Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:41 pm

Well remember that Homura is still a 14 year old in the mind, sort of. What she dealt with can traumatize her and do pretty stupid things. This also shows that she is still immature some way. Homura might be an experienced Magical Girl, but people tend to forget she is a young girl.

Sure she might be technically older based on how many times she repeated the month, but the 14 year old mentality is still there. I think what is the problem is that Homura has a mental problem and she caused too much problems as a result.

If possible, Homura would need some therapy to prevent her for doing more damage.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Homura Did Nothing Wrong   Tue Sep 06, 2016 10:11 pm

@zenkai97 wrote:
Well remember that Homura is still a 14 year old in the mind, sort of. What she dealt with can traumatize her and do pretty stupid things. This also shows that she is still immature some way. Homura might be an experienced Magical Girl, but people tend to forget she is a young girl. 

Sure she might be technically older based on how many times she repeated the month, but the 14 year old mentality is still there. I think what is the problem is that Homura has a mental problem and she caused too much problems as a result.

If possible, Homura would need some therapy to prevent her for doing more damage.

Yeah, unfortunately people seem to forget all too often that they're all just young girls.

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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Homura Did Nothing Wrong   Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:11 pm

That is unfortunate. Maybe we just got so used to them being bad ass that we forgot who they really were.
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