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 Why do we hate Kyubey?

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zenkai97
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PostSubject: Why do we hate Kyubey?   Sun Oct 09, 2016 11:21 pm

Even if Kyubey thinks that he is doing a good thing, I personally think that his actions are still unjust.

I personally hate Kyubey for lacking any honor. He aims for girls that are vulnerable and takes advantage of it. It makes me sick that he has targeted girls for centuries and got away with it. He is not a liar, but he is a trickster of sorts. At least Frieza from DBZ has the balls to go up to just anyone that defies him.

Another thing I hate about Kyubey is his science. From what I learned in college, his explanation of entropy is kind of false. Entropy is disorder which he is right about, but the other parts are not true. The end of the world is a possibility and I do not wish for it to happen, but Kyubey's method has a chance of not working due to false science and it's just messed up. I wouldn't be surprised if there is an ulterior plan that the incubators have other than saving the universe.

Why do you guys hate Kyubey?
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we hate Kyubey?   Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:59 pm

If there's one thing I hate about Kyubey, it's his characterization in Rebellion. He puts Homura in the isolation field without asking her first by force, contradicting what he says in the series that he asks others if they want what he's giving and not doing it right there and then unless they agree in full.

But I personally don't hate him much. I think he's a well-written villain, and I like him because of how he tricks the girls and how he goes about it, and has no personal attachments to make him regret his actions. He's a big bad that isn't defeated/killed but rather worked with in terms of Madoka's wish (in the series anyway).
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we hate Kyubey?   Mon Oct 10, 2016 3:06 pm

I do think that he is a well written character, but the stuff he does pisses me off! He's not the type of villain where you can like him for being evil, he is meant to be hated. If that was the intention, they did a good job at that. I do not care about the definition of evil or the goals. His actions speak louder than words.

I'll use a quote from a manga series, "You're the kind of evil that doesn't realize it's evil...That's the worst kind of evil there is!"
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we hate Kyubey?   Mon Oct 10, 2016 3:53 pm

@zenkai97 wrote:
He aims for girls that are vulnerable and takes advantage of it. It makes me sick that he has targeted girls for centuries and got away with it. He is not a liar, but he is a trickster of sorts.

I agree 100%. This is the main reason why I hate him, personally.

I also definitely agree with your last post, he is a well written character, and we don't necessarily have to label him as "evil" to hate/dislike him.

In my eyes, he is "evil", though. And I think he would be to most people, too; which is apparent by the sheer amount of people in the fandom that hate him. It's definitely understandable; after all, without his meddling, the girls would all be much happier (except Mami, and maybe Kyoko).

I think that, in order to not be evil, he should only go after girls who are on the verge of death, or who would be worse off by not making a wish than by making a wish. The fact that he goes after girls such as Madoka and Sayaka who already have good lives, just shows how little he values humans; because he's perfectly willing, and even eager, to make people suffer unnecessarily.

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PostSubject: Re: Why do we hate Kyubey?   Mon Oct 10, 2016 4:49 pm

sayakafav wrote:
The fact that he goes after girls such as Madoka and Sayaka who already have good lives, just shows how little he values humans; because he's perfectly willing, and even eager, to make people suffer unnecessarily.

Dear lord, I never thought about it that way. I just thought that going after girls is messed up in general, but being that specific just makes him more awful.
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we hate Kyubey?   Mon Oct 10, 2016 8:51 pm

@sayakasfav wrote:
The fact that he goes after girls such as Madoka and Sayaka who already have good lives, just shows how little he values humans; because he's perfectly willing, and even eager, to make people suffer unnecessarily.

He's not necessarily going after any and all girls (perfect life or worse), but girls who feel they want something more to their lives, which can make or break them depending on if they are desperate or think it'll solve everything in a snap.

Madoka has a perfect life, but feels worthless as she feels she has nothing special about herself (which makes it worse when she's introduced to the world of magical girls, who have special qualities and Kyubey states she has that quality that makes her better than the average magical girl).

Sayaka has a fine life as well, but wants to help Kyosuke and get him to love her and feels pressured not only by Kyubey's offer, but Kyosuke himself practically finding himself to be worthless without being able to play music to the point he inflicts self-harm on himself (in the series, and almost suicide in the PSP game) if he doesn't recover.

@sayakasfav wrote:
I think that, in order to not be evil, he should only go after girls who are on the verge of death, or who would be worse off by not making a wish than by making a wish.
The girls who are on the verge of death could wish to live longer and girls who are worse off not making a wish could wish to better their lives, and thus would still have a life that is rooted to being a magical girl and eventually becoming a witch upon despair. Their lives will still suffer in the end, worse than what they probably had initially.
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we hate Kyubey?   Mon Oct 10, 2016 10:20 pm

A another quote that describes how I feel about the fuzz ball from 0:00 to 0:11
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAWLp7T0Cp4
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we hate Kyubey?   Wed Oct 12, 2016 8:56 am

@The Witch's House wrote:
He's not necessarily going after any and all girls (perfect life or worse), but girls who feel they want something more to their lives, which can make or break them depending on if they are desperate or think it'll solve everything in a snap.

Madoka has a perfect life, but feels worthless as she feels she has nothing special about herself (which makes it worse when she's introduced to the world of magical girls, who have special qualities and Kyubey states she has that quality that makes her better than the average magical girl).

Sayaka has a fine life as well, but wants to help Kyosuke and get him to love her and feels pressured not only by Kyubey's offer, but Kyosuke himself practically finding himself to be worthless without being able to play music to the point he inflicts self-harm on himself (in the series, and almost suicide in the PSP game) if he doesn't recover.

Yes, that is all true. What makes Kyubey awful for doing this is the fact that these are things they would have gotten over eventually, or found some other way to address the problem. The thing is, is that while they knew they were getting into something dangerous; they had no idea just how dangerous. They knew they could die soon, but they didn't know that it was almost certain. I think if they knew they absolutely would die very soon as a result of making the contract, and that it wasn't an "if", but a "when", I think they would have said no.

In Sayaka's case, while I do admire her wanting to help him that much, Kyosuke could have gotten help for his self-harm (and possible suicidal thoughts). I truly think that things would have worked out, in some way or another, for the better if Kyubey hadn't intervened. Sayaka's feelings for Kyosuke would NOT have lasted forever; not at that age. In fact, she was pretty much over him in Rebellion, remember the scene where she talked about how oblivious he was? She barely mentioned him at all throughout the movie. Did she still care for him in a platonic sense? Of course; this was made obvious at the end of the movie. She must've gone through some off-screen character development in between the end of the series and the beginning of Rebellion; likely when she was in magical girl heaven with Madoka. Here's the thing: she did not have to die for that development to occur, at least when you take out the context of magical girls and witches. If she had just gone on living her life without the discovery of the world of magical girls, something else likely would have happened at one point or another to make her realize that she didn't have a chance with him (yes, I'm aware that there's a route in the PSP game where he does return her feelings, but in the series not only the opposite is strongly implied, but Urobuchi actually confirmed he doesn't like her back), and yes, she would have been sad about it, but she most likely would have moved on at some point. And then she would go on to have a longer life than she would have if she had made a wish.

As for Madoka, she could have found her purpose in life on her own without magical intervention, and even if she never did, she would be surrounded by people who care about her. And, like Sayaka, go on to have a longer life.

@The Witch's House wrote:
The girls who are on the verge of death could wish to live longer and girls who are worse off not making a wish could wish to better their lives, and thus would still have a life that is rooted to being a magical girl and eventually becoming a witch upon despair. Their lives will still suffer in the end, worse than what they probably had initially.

I was specifically talking about situations where they would have either died, or suffered just as much as they would have if they had been a magical girl. The reason going after girls in those positions isn't as bad is because they would have suffered anyway. If they wouldn't have suffered as much if they didn't make a wish, their lives wouldn't have been worse off, and they fall into the same category as Madoka and Sayaka.

What I was trying to get at is that Kyubey does not care about these girls at all and only sees them as tools that will further his goals. He doesn't have the capacity to understand what suffering is beyond a purely utilitarian perspective, which in this case, is as good as nothing. He has no empathy or sympathy for others, and fits the textbook definition of a psychopath. This is why we hate Kyubey; because he's someone who, if given a good enough reason, would destroy all life without a single regret.

(Sorry if it seems like I'm being too forceful about this Sweatdrop I'm not trying to push my opinion on anyone else, just trying to explain my view on the subject)

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PostSubject: Re: Why do we hate Kyubey?   Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:52 pm

Well there is one big thing we can agree of why we hate Kyubey, he does not give a s***. Just like a Honey Badger. Now if you think about it, does this mean that Kyubey is an alien Honey Badger?

Back to the matter at hand, pretty much his lack of emotions tends to sicken us. Props for you to give a much newer insight on this concept as if Kyubey want humanity destroy, he would not even flinch in doing so.

In Kyousuke's case, this might happen if the magical girl system never existed. More like a 25% or less chance, but it would be funny if it did happen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMsGTEuCQCU
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we hate Kyubey?   Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:22 pm

@zenkai97 wrote:
Back to the matter at hand, pretty much his lack of emotions tends to sicken us.

Yeah, I think that's exactly it. I think I might be a bit more sympathetic of him if he showed some guilt or remorse, or really anything other than a void where emotion would be, were he a person.

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PostSubject: Re: Why do we hate Kyubey?   Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:52 pm

Skin the little bastard! XD! It's just so funny just to say that about Kyubey.
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we hate Kyubey?   Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:01 pm

Well, there were several key points that kept adding to my hatred for Kyubey:

-In the  anime, when its revealed that he removed the girls' souls from their bodies and didn't even tell them that would happen.
-Also, in the anime , when he reveals that all magical girls turn into witches so he can harvest them for energy.
-When he gives Madoka the talk about harvesting humans for energy and tries to justify himself by comparing humans to livestock being slaughtered and says that the death of one human shouldn't matter when there are billions of humans on the planet. This speech was the point when I really started to truly hate him.

-In the Rebellion movie, he succeeded in making me hate him even more (which I didn't even know was possible) by trapping Homura in her own corrupted soul gem, thus forcing her to become a witch, and using her as bait to capture Madoka so that he could stop the Law of Cycles and make witches exist again just because its more convenient to him to have witches over wraiths.

-Lastly, if one considers it canon, the Homura's Revenge manga made me hate him even more than in the anime or Rebellion. In Homura's Revenge, he goes out of his way to make sure that Madoka and Homura(who both have their past memories in that timeline along with Kyubey who also has his past memories) don't succeed in stopping all the bad things from happening. He actively foils their plans to make sure that Mami still dies, Sayaka still becomes a witch, and Madoka still is forced to contract into a magical girl when she's backed into a corner.

Basically, I think Kyubey is more of a devil/demon than Homura will ever be even if she did call herself one in Rebellion. Kyubey is the true evil here. If people want to blame anyone for what happened in Rebellion, they should blame Kyubey for setting it all into motion by manipulating Homura and playing with her emotions, just like he always does when he targets innocent vulernable young girls, which is another reason why I hate him.
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we hate Kyubey?   Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:09 am

He is not a devil. Devil knows what good and evil is and freely chooses evil; also he* knows love and other feelings/values but rejects it out of free will. Kyuubey is completely infamiliar with the concept of good/evil as it's defined by human race neither he knows human emotions.

*I'm writing about devil being male though he is actually genderless but in Christianity God, angels and devils are described as 'male' while Humanity as a whole is 'female'~

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PostSubject: Re: Why do we hate Kyubey?   Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:26 am

Actually, Kyubey does mention to Madoka that his species is capable of feeling emotions. He just says that for an Incubator to feel emotions is considered a mental disorder. So, this means that they can have emotions but actively reject them and shun any Incubator that has them as "unstable".

As for why I called him a devil(without going into too much detail in real-world religion since its againt the forum rules and I don't want to get in trouble :/), here are some devil-like qualities Kyubey has:
-Resorting to trickery and deception and just being plain manipulative
-Seeing no value in human life
-Actively causing the suffering of innocent people

By contrast, except for maybe the manipulative part in Rebellion, Homura doesn't fit any of those.
Homura values the lives of her friends, especially that of Madoka, and goes out of her way to try to prevent their suffering. Yes, she does use some manipulation and trickery in Rebellion, but its with good intentions of saving Madoka, even if her means of doing so were questionable. This is why it bothers me that Homura is called a devil (if you watched sub) or demon (if you watch dubbed) since in my opinion, other than maybe the slight manipulation, she's nothing like one.
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we hate Kyubey?   Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:05 am

Of course, Homura's calling herself a demon/devil probably because she sees 'damaging' the Law of Cycles (by 'kidnapping' Madoka) as a some kind of unforgivable 'sin', even if this is for greater good. She also knew that she would be perceived as a villain due to her deeds anyway. 

Or maybe for fun~

I hope I'm not violating the forum's rules as long as I'm talking theoretically about given religion's theological aspects. It's only my interpretation but I think that due to PMMM itself has some kind of quasi-religious references within, banning the 'theoretical' discussion about religion(s) is useless and what should be avoided is discussion about members personal beliefs?

Kyuubey's doing what he's doing to achieve his own goals, not out of unconditional hatred toward humanity and basically everything, like a devil does. But whether one may call him a 'devil' or not depends on one's general concept of what 'devil' is XD

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PostSubject: Re: Why do we hate Kyubey?   Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:01 am

@SockPuppet wrote:
Of course, Homura's calling herself a demon/devil probably because she sees 'damaging' the Law of Cycles (by 'kidnapping' Madoka) as a some kind of unforgivable 'sin', even if this is for greater good. She also knew that she would be perceived as a villain due to her deeds anyway.

Yup, it must be somewhere along these lines. Plus she seems to suffer from serious self esteem problems. I always see those big eyes she makes when someone seems to care for her. Like it surprises her and she seriously doubts that she deserves it. And it just gets worse if she thinks about herself as "a demon" or "evil" Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we hate Kyubey?   Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:44 am

Poor Homura. Even being so badrzyć and full of herself she has still that issues of hers :(

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PostSubject: Re: Why do we hate Kyubey?   Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:50 am

She isn't completely sane and has her flaws but I really don't think arrogance is one of them. About being badrzyć... well, even google failed me here. So I have absolutely no idea Happy Jump
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we hate Kyubey?   Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:00 am

Quote :
badrzyć

I've made this word cause I didn't want to use 'ass'~

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PostSubject: Re: Why do we hate Kyubey?   Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:04 am

Oh. I interpreted all of it as an act. Not first, but on the second look. First I just thought she had finally gone completely insane and it was depressing and infuriating at once. It seemed a bit sudden but not outside the realm of possibility.
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we hate Kyubey?   Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:19 am

And I do agree that Kyuubey is a terrible 'person' but I kind of like him as a fictional character~Really well written villain(?)

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PostSubject: Re: Why do we hate Kyubey?   Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:25 am

@SockPuppet wrote:
And I do agree that Kyuubey is a terrible 'person' but I kind of like him as a fictional character~Really well written villain(?)

And he's quite interesting. She reminds me of very abstract human scientists who have elaborate plans and vast knowledge, are sharp and calculating yet they have strange blind spots. Hell, they work with humans for millennia and they still don't understand them!

Really, sometimes they seem so stupid for their state of development... "Granting" "any" wish is a call for trouble, a trap set for themselves.
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